Build It Series: I'm Data-Optimising Fashion Manufacturing For Good with WiMetrix's Abdul Moiz Sajjad

We're back with a brand new series 'Build It', digging deep into how fashion tech startups are building their companies from the ground up.

Join Peter as he sits down with Abdul Moiz Sajjad, CEO of WeMetrix, to explore how data can change the way fashion factories can be infinitely more efficient. Abdul shares invaluable insights into how AI solutions like his are reshaping one of Pakistan's most vital economic sectors, textiles and garments, which contributes a massive 59.5% to the nation's exports.

In this episode, we learn the inefficiencies plaguing the fashion supply chains and how it's impacting wider global issues such as sustainability and ethics.  Abdul emphasises the importance of reimagining processes rather than sticking to incremental changes, and why real-time factory analytics is a must for factories of the future.

Discover WiMetrix's solution at wimetrix.com
Get in contact with Abdul on LinkedIn.

Chapters

• 0:00 Building Fashion Technologies
• 12:49 Revolutionizing Fashion Supply Chain With Technology
• 23:00 Manufacturing Efficiency and Climate Action

Transcript

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 0:00

Hello, I'm Peter Jeun Ho Tsang, founder and CEO of Beyond Form, and welcome to the special series Build it, where I speak to founders and their clients as to how they're building fashion technologies. This series gives you a glimpse into topics such as personal struggles, technical challenges, working in fashion and more. On this first episode, I speak to Abdul Moiz Sajjad, the CEO of WeMetrix. I've been working with Abdul for nearly 12 months now, and in that time, I've just learned so much as to how factories can be made more efficient simply with the use of data. However, it's not an easy task, and for factories, especially based in Pakistan, where WeMetrix is also based.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 0:44

All those decision making is basically done on the basis of data, and in a matter of no time we could see that the production facilities efficiency, which used to be somewhere around 40 or 45 percent, remarkably jumped to 70 percent. And all along this time we were of this view that, you know, only the newer machines are going to improve the image, and they proved us wrong.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 1:08

Let's get this episode underway with Abdul on Venturing into Fashion Tech. How are you today, Abdul? I'm good. Peter, how are you? I'm good, thank you. So looking forward to today's conversation. We've been working together now for nearly a year with Beyond Form and WeMetrix. Today's episode is all about the supply chain, fashion production and how potentially WeMetrics can actually help the industry to become more digitized and more sustainable and more automated and efficient in many, many ways.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 1:46

But before we get stuck into the conversation itself, I just want to give the listeners some context as to the subject itself. So WeMetrix is based in Pakistan and, in terms of the country itself, it exported 16.5 billion US dollars worth of textiles and garment goods in 2022 and 2023. This accounts for 59.5% of total exports from the country, and that's according to Fibre 2 Fashion. So, as we can see, this industry is very integral to the country. The sheer number of volume itself as well is huge. That's a huge portion of the global market in terms of exports. It's the bread and butter of your industry. But of course, that also comes with challenges itself, namely climate change, sustainability, ethics, which we'll get into in the conversation today. In terms of the eu, obviously, where beyond form is partly based. It is the largest export market for pakistan when it comes to raw materials, yarns such as cotton, and so forth. It sees pakistan being the third largest exporter to the block, according to eventage. So, again, talking about exports and where it's going, the eu has a huge responsibility to ensure that the supply chain within fashion can function properly and, of course, that the future of fashion and pakistan and the supply chain can effectively keep on going forward. Obviously, with temperatures reaching 50 degrees on your side of the world celsius this year, that is disrupting the supply chain so much, and there has been a lot of conversation about can factories still run in such extreme conditions? I think that's going to be an interesting topic later on.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 3:36

Pakistan is a production powerhouse, especially for western brands. We rely on it so much, but it's also very opaque. There is little transparency or traceability and, coupled with climate change, the country's supply chains are on the thread. So is it pushing the fashion supply chain to the edge? So food for thought there. But before we get into those quite deep conversations, shall we say I want to know a little bit more about you, abdul. What was life going up in a country that is so reliant on production and exporting goods. How did it shape your view of the world?

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 4:16

Thank you so much for the lovely introduction, peter, and thank you so much for telling a bit about us and a lot about, obviously, the industry and economic situation of Pakistan. Like you said, peter, so more than 50% of our exports are based on fashion industry. The trend has been as such over the last couple of years that previously the country was solely exporting raw material, things like yarn products or that and then it has, you know, very recently it became a realization for the entire industry that they probably need to enter into more value-added services, which is the export of varmints. So that is why you see there's a certain rise in the number of varmint manufacturing facilities popping up all across Pakistan. And you know what, if you have the raw materials in abundance and obviously it's a country of 4, 20 million people Uh, what that essentially means is that most of those people are looking for jobs and so that, if you look at it from a business perspective, put Pakistan in an ideal situation.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 5:19

Uh, further well value this industry. Like you mentioned, it also has uh effects. It also has environmental effects as well. So, yes, the industry has been tackling both the problems and moving through this, as somebody growing up, especially on the tech side, so I was an electrical engineer and then I started working in manufacturing industry. I personally felt two things. One is that fashion industry in general has a lot of opportunity for improvement, and then if you really want to do something for your country, then this was particularly the industry in which you wanted to contribute, because that can actually change the scale of things in Pakistan. It can provide a humongous opportunity in terms of people, in terms of creating jobs, and, at the same time, I would say that there is a lot to be done in terms of creating awareness for brands, for consumers, about the effects or precautions that must be exercised for your decision or for your choice of fashion.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 6:26

And then as a child, abdul, did you just see factories everywhere. Just give some context to our listeners, like where are you based? You know, how did that come across to you as a child? You mentioned that there is such a prevalent industry, so did that influence you in any way?

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 6:44

prevalent industry. So did that influence you in any way? You see me growing up I was. I used to live in the older part of the Lahore. There's smaller manufacturing facilities all across the city. When you're growing up, your exposure is sort of limited to those small scale manufacturing facilities. And then when you grow up, you get to work in in some of the bigger facilities, like I happen to work for an mnc.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 7:09

So, yes, fashion in some form or another is all across pakistan. So there are, there are different markets that people who will. You know some, some styles are very inherent to pakistan. So you see them existing in some form or another, because in fact, I would say that at even the way, that's like one of the basic ways for people to earn money. I mean, there are a lot of women who would practice this at their home, stitching clothes for people. Yes, the employer to industry did exist in it. I would say, uh, at a very grassroots level. But then, obviously, when you start understanding how manufacturing works, you start figuring out that there is a gap that exists in this market, especially for products yeah, I think it's so interesting because obviously in the west and for western consumers, we kind of know where garments are made.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 8:08

You know a huge well, a lot of it is made in asia, but when we think about it we don't really know to what extent it affects the country. When I was growing up I had family factories out in China. And I always say to everybody until you've really been to a fashion factory or a garment factory in some rural countryside in my case China you don't really see or realize just what a different world it is, the conditions that people are putting themselves in just to survive. And, as you say, there a lot of people need jobs and they want to take jobs and therefore they take in fashion factories just because it is a very viable way to make money. All of these um, shall we say, lack was to be whatever word. Ignorance on this side of the world doesn't necessarily make the situation very easy. But let's just go back to you again, um abdul.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 9:15

So you said that actually you're trained as an electrical engineer. So in my head the two things with fashion and engineering, electric engineering have nothing in common. You went then into tobacco manufacturing. Did you just wake up one day I was like OK, I am going to work and acquire WeMetrics and start working in the fashion world. Like, how did that happen?

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 9:43

It's a very interesting story when I was working with this, the first job of mine in the tobacco industry. It's a global MNC and they undertook this project of digitizing their factories all across the world and probably, I think MNCs are a little ahead In fact they are, so they're realizing the potential of this. They undertook a global operation where they completely revamped the factories when it comes to monitoring of production using sensors and using computers and using all these analytical tools. All those decision making is basically done on the basis of data and in a matter of no time we could see that the balance, action facilities, efficiency which was, which used to be somewhere around 40 or 45 percent, remarkably jumped to 70 percent. And all along this time we were of this view that, you know, only the newer machines are going to improve the efficiency, and they proved us wrong. They changed the way we work. They made it entirely on the basis of data that we used to get and do steps analytically. So that was one thing that actually, you know like it struck me personally so heavily that when you see something in action and you experience something firsthand, your beliefs sort of strengthens up on that particular agenda, or technology, for that matter. So If I have to implement that understanding that I was able to get.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 11:20

The industry that was in abundance is the barrel and textile industry, and not just being in abundance of the barrel and textile industry, or the local manufacturing industry for that matter, is way behind what the eminencies or where eminencies are, and so that kind of highlighted not just a business opportunity but as well as something in which where I personally felt that I can contribute and, you know, I can create a mark.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 11:49

And that is how, with the information of manufacturing and with the market being in abundance, we thought, okay, let's get into this market, let's see what we can do for them and what started off, as you can say, an implementation. For one fact we started figuring out the amount of inefficiency or the need that if people have for this solution was immense. And it was not just the city, was not just the spent in the fab, solar later realize it's a global problem. And so that is how we met. Next, from one factory to now, a global entity has evolved. As you go along the way, your understanding also evolves and the problems sort of also, you know, your perspective evolves of those problems. So that has been a great journey for us. So, yeah, that's where the inspiration came from the tobacco industry and that's how the experience eventually ended up being contributed to the fashion industry.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 12:49

So is it your personal mission, then, to try and solve all the fashion supply chain problems? I think yes.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 12:56

Because, you see, apart from being a business reason, I think everybody looks to strive to create an impact in their life. I personally feel that it's a good cause. It's a cause that has both the financial aspects as well, as well as environmental aspects as well, and then you can actually end up going good for a lot of people. Fashion industry is probably one of those industries that actually connects to very different classes of people, and I think if you can do something good in that, if you can create a bit of transparency in that, then you can do a lot of good for the entire world. Consumption of fashion is something that has been there since the existence of humans. So that is something that is been there since the existence of humans, so that is something that is going to continue for long, and I think if you can sort of contribute even a little bit to this whole industry, I think that's a great possibility. So what is WeMetrix then? So WeMetrix itself is a fashion production type of solutions. As a company, we basically wish to eliminate the inefficiencies from this entire process, create transparency for about the operations, as well as reduce inefficiencies for manufacturers and what it ultimately does it for that which improves their profitability. You only don't need to create the value. You also need to show the value to all the players that are part, that are the stakeholders of this. So that is why Biometrics, as a company, has started out working with manufacturers. We promised them greater profitability and we do that through a number of things we digitize them, we make sure they are paperless, we make sure that operational efficiency is improved and we make sure that the rejections and the defects are treated. And once they end up doing that, they not only reduce their carbon footprint, because you see, we keep talking about Paris Accord and what that says is that there is almost a billion tons of carbon emissions that the industry is producing which are above the target. 75% of that is coming from fashion manufacturing.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 15:04

Now what you want to do is you have to look at manufacturing and you have to look at the ways that, how you can reduce the inefficiencies in this particular segment.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 15:13

And if you do that, you will not only make it more profitable for the manufacturer, but we will also reduce the carbon footprint. And I think if you look at the bigger problem, then I would say that even what CS3D or these compliances are going to do is we sort of need to create transparency for everyone, because, you see, manufacturers, inherently, are not at fault. I would say there is not enough consciousness that exists in the market as of today, or I would say there are not enough means to sort, let that information get through brands or, eventually, and consumers. So that brings, so that puts us in a company, as a position that, yes, we create. We make sure that the market is willing to solve this problem as one and everybody contributes, everybody talks about it, everybody says what, what they can do, how we can generate more demand, uh, of more sustainable fashion, how brands can regulate that demand and how manufacturers, how we enable manufacturers to sort of help them cut their carbon emissions and produce more friendly, more sustainable fashion for the rest of the world.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 16:37

So, obviously, to have that conversation, though, we need to understand what's happening on the factory floor. We need to have those insights. You mentioned the inefficiencies and trying to solve them. Again, to do that, we actually need to have data to make that happen before we can make an informed decision as to how to move forward. So, in this scenario, in what ways and how or why is data so important within the fashion supply chain? And quite often, I think that you know the fashion supply chain managers or developers. I think they know that something is happening there, but we don't actually know what data is and how we can use it?

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 17:16

I would answer that question. I would answer it in two parts, like what to expect? What is going to change? What are the tools we have as of today? I would say luckily. Today, as a human race, we are at a point where we have the means to address this issue, and those means are in tech. So the technology is something that has come so far that, if we use it properly, if the manufacturing sector uses it properly, these are addressable challenges.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 17:48

This is not a challenge that I personally feel is unaddressed. It's just that not enough attention has been given to it. If we, like I said, all stakeholders are on the same side of it, then I'm sure that If we, like I said, all stakeholders are on the same side of it, then I'm sure that the solution to this exists. So now we sort of have to understand what kind of change it is. You see, as humans, we are all very aware of incremental changes and we experience it in our lives, and all of us, even in our careers or even in our personal lives, we all see incremental changes. But over here we are not talking about incremental changes. This is a radical change. This is a radical change that we have to embrace. And I love giving the example of the Japan Railways and when they introduced this the train baguette I think 1958 or 68, I can't exactly remember the date. But when the Japan Railways gave this task to their team that you know, the train that brings to Nisar, where around 50, 60 kilometers per hour speed they said you know, what do you want to make? We want you to make a train that goes at 200 kilometers per hour. Why I'm putting this example is because you see it when in this example, they can not only have to have a better engine. They have to look at the problem in a very different way. They have to reimagine all the components of it. They have to reimagine that in order to have this radical change implemented. They looked at it as they need wider tracks, or they need more battery aerodynamics or the engine style. Engine efficiency has to be improved as well. That's the kind of change that we're talking about, radical change, and, frankly speaking, we don't even have to do a lot of brainstorming for that.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 19:40

From the last couple of years, the industry experts have already been talking about it. They're already, and that is not only just related to apparel or textile or fashion industry, for that matter, it's a global change in manufacturing that is just around the corner and that's called the fourth industrial revolution. This is the reason it's called industrial revolution, because over the past three revolutions the steam revolution or the assembly line revolution, and the last revolution, which was about semiconductors every revolution is called a revolution because it drastically changes the outlook of the industry. And this fourth industrial revolution is also going to drastically change the industry and, if being used correctly, then that can eliminate a lot of inefficiency from it. So, with that understanding in our mind that the manufacturing itself is going for a huge change and there are reasons for that and I take this bit of time time basically tell people that.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 20:40

Why industrial revolution on manufacturing is around the corner now and not 20 years ago? Because you see, a lot of industries have changed over the last 20 years banking you imagine 20 years of banking 20 years ago and today drastically changed. Renton industry 20 years ago today you got Uber, you got Airbnb, you got all you know things. Rental industry has media industry got Netflix and all that and everything has changed to now. Manufacturing 20 years ago and today is almost the same. Why it's the same? Or why it did not change, because manufacturing is about a lot of data. Manufacturing is about a lot of information. Every EPT even the t-shirt that I'm wearing has a basic as that has more than 40 operations that has to be done upon itself before it goes out. Every operation needs to know who did it, where it was done, what was the material it was on, how much time it took to be done. You know, the information is just tremendous.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 21:38

And two things have changed over the last 10 years that have brought this revolution on the brain. One is the introduction of IOT devices. So now we have IOT devices available. What that means is that previously the only way to monitor the data was either to use a personal computer or to have the PLC's from local brands that cost humongous amount. Now these IoT devices are very cheap and you can install it at a number of places across the country to track a particular product. The second thing that has changed drastically over the last five, ten years is the cost of data storage. I still remember having an mp3 player that my brother brought from UK. It was 256 nbi. You know you could plug in a headphone in that and I think you could have what like 100 sold.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 22:29

I think that's even something along those lines, like very small numbers, like fathomable now.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 22:36

Something along those lines like very small numbers. I can fathomable now. Now you have smaller SD cards than an 8GB number and start talking about cloud storage immensely cheap. So those two things have basically put the industry on a break of change that now they can get the data from the flow and they can store the data. And you see one thing that is now changing in a lot of ways change that now they can get the data from the flow and they can store the data. And you see one thing that is now changing in a lot of ways. You know we will see a lot of people talking about AI.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 23:02

This whole industrial revolution has one component of AI that is going to change it and you need to understand that. What are the pillars of this change? So the pillars of this change are getting the data from floor in real time. The second pillar of that is big data analytics. Big data analytics means that you don't make a decision on the basis of what you are seeing today or in the peak one of the month. You understand, you figure out the trends in that and then you make a call.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 23:32

On the basis of this real-time data and this big data analytics lies your artificial intelligence. Just like any experienced person or any person you meet in, their experience is basically based on that the data that they've been able to get in their entire lives. They have the big data analytics going on in their head, that is. That is the same case with AI, and in order to continue to eat it, in order to have the latest insights, you need to set up some slow little data. So, with that in place, so with you know the matter, the industrial revolution going on within production of AI, the manufacturing is going to change, and so it's going to change for apparel and textile fashion industry as well.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 24:19

With that in consideration, you must know that. What are the changes it can bring? It can actually help you improve your operational efficiency. It can actually help you be more agile. It can actually help you improve you know what passion get, planning and capacity. And then, obviously the biggest of them all, uh, the database, data driven intelligence, the automation decision making, because that is like that is going to revolutionize industry. All those tedious decisions that previously took a lot of time to be taken will be done quickly.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 24:51

So you talk about the industrial rev revolutions. That is a very brief history, shall we say history lesson there, that we had. We now know that obviously, the industrial revolutions have contributed towards climate change. Of course we are, as you said, there. We are putting out a lot of carbon emissions as an industry and we know that is a cause of that, one of the causes, shall we say. It is a pressing issue for the fashion industry, especially when we're talking about sustainability, but it seems like brands and governments aren't necessarily working enough, with manufacturing hubs like in Pakistan, for example, where're based, or with people like yourself trying to make it a little bit more efficient to make climate action goals a reality. We now know as well that we're not going to hit our targets as well. You mentioned there the Paris Accord.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 25:48

As I mentioned in the introduction to this episode, temperatures on your side of the world reached between 40 to 50 degrees celsius. I can't even imagine what it's like going to work in such extreme heat. I can imagine you were sweating out in such an extreme temperature. I know that you have ac in your office, but I'm not sure how effective the ac actually was. Um, you must have been dying right.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 26:15

So I think so far, what we've talked about is how the manufacturing needs to make itself more efficient. In particular, talking about what lies ahead for fashion is actually the insights that we have to get and deliver to the consumer and the brands, and I think that is where the importance of Fortata platform comes. If I look at my perspective before visiting any apparel factory and after visiting, it's hugely different. We have this glossy image of a factory where, you know, probably one garment is made at a time, one garment is packed at a time and then, you know, delivered to the store. In reality, that is a very environmentally intensive procedure. I think what, as a customer, you don't understand is that two garments from same brand, probably of the same material, with different finishes, different shade of you know, with different washes, technically speaking, have different carbon footprints. And the data platform that is the requirement of the world right now is that a data platform must exist in this entire supply chain that eventually tells the end customer that you know what, if you buy this amount, it will have this much amount of carbon footprint and if you buy this one, then it will have lesser impact. So they can make informacy. I think that's the least the world goes to the consumer of fashion is the information that what their choice actually means, and then so we can start dropping back from this 50 degree centigrade temperature to 49, and I think that is the only way you can use. As long as the demand exists, there's little you can do about it, but if you create awareness, then only the awareness is not going to solve this problem. You also need to give them the information that and I think this is what cs3d at digital product passport is all about. When I see them speaking of this legislation, I see a lot of confusion in their mind as well, because they are the legal experts. They are not the operational experts and, like I said, it can be as complex as two t-shirts of the same brand, different shades having different brands. So you need a platform that basically monitors the carbon footprint right from the yarn stage to, I would say, the gray fabric stage, dying stage, or the cutting and wash and packing. Every step of the way. It has to be monitored.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 29:11

And just one last thing that I'd like to add is that we also need to create this understanding in consumers as well that what sort of industry structure do we have like brands, really don't own factories. Most of them don't own. The biggest problem I see as a part of this industry is that constant pressure that we like to put on the manufacturers. They are just, you know, everybody's putting the pressure on manufacturers. They are, they have a business and they have these requirements from customers that they have to wait and they have. Each factory has two thousand, three thousand people to feed and that's not an easy business to do.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 29:49

So I think speaking, I mean when I look at them struggling, when I look at them handling day-to-day challenges, especially to the part of the world they belong to, I think it gets. It can be very challenging for them. So we have to step in their shoes. We have to understand that. How can we help these manufacturers? What sort of technology do we have to provide them? What sort of requirements do we have to provide this? And then we create this transparency to the end consumer and then channel the demand in such a way that it's a win-win situation for everyone right, but to give information to the customers.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 30:25

You know. I completely agree that you know the western consumer should be given information so that they can understand actually what's happening. Of course we know as well, especially with gen z, they are wanting to purchase goods that are maybe more sustainable, more ethical and so forth, but still I feel that it's like a disconnect between knowing that information and, as you said there, putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. I can imagine, you know, trying to work in a factory that is, you know, 50 degrees celsius, 40 degrees celsius, whatever it is, is extremely difficult.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 30:57

I can imagine that impacted your clients in such a drastic way that us on this side of the world can't even fathom you see, I mean that puts the manufacturers at a little pressure because, frankly speaking, I mean some of the some of the factories they have installed air conditioners or chillers on the floors just to make sure that the situation is bearable.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 31:23

I would say, if they have to produce quality garments, at the end of the day, and who's going to make those quality garments? It's the people who are going to make the quality garments, and quality is something that does not come from, you know, by forcing someone. Quality is something that does not come from, you know, by forcing someone. Quality is something that is very inherent to people. You need to understand that. You know, despite the fact that pakistani population is not, is not the only consumer of of that carbon footprint, and or they have very little contribution in terms of consuming that carbon footprint, most of it is coming from the west, and I think so does the responsibility shift as well, and I think climate change is obviously only one aspect with the tough conditions of a factory, for I think you and I can talk about this all day long for our listeners.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 32:06

Just in context, I used to work in product development and fashion production and working with factories out in china. When you have a client that says I want this order by X date, you cannot be late, otherwise I'm going to fine you that you have no other choice but to work through those conditions. You know the factory workers that I was working with. They were doing a 12 hour shift. If they didn't finish their garment line they'd do overtime for another one, two hours, whatever. Whatever it is, you see them taking naps on the factory floor. They're working six days a week, sometimes seven days a week depending on the workload of that factory, and it is tough.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 32:44

And I think we really don't realize that. When we're purchasing our goods, you know when customers going to primark buying their five pound top, you know in london that is just. You know there's such a big disconnect and, yeah, we won't go into that subject right now because that is a whole other topic. But if you could do something in a very short one minute rally cry, what is your rally cry to the fashion industry for the supply chain to be more transparent and to be, you know, working a little bit more effective.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 33:21

I think, like I said before, we need to make the end consumer informative enough. We need to provide them enough information to be responsible for their choice. And you can only do that if you have the means to tell them that what their choice actually means. And that is you can do to mapping the carbon footprint of any rubber throughout the supply chain. You have to start right from the raw materials and then, at every step of the manufacturing, there is utility consumption, there is water consumption, there's steam consumption.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 34:02

Uh, today we have today we have the solutions to do that. Today we can monitor the carbon footprint at every point in time, at every stage of the production, and tell the end consumer that this is your, this is the choice, this is the cost of your choice. So people also start looking not just at the price tag but at the carbon tag and then make the choice. And I know people and I know deep down, people are all people are all responsible, people want to make good choices. But just that you have to provide them the right information. And now we have this legislation that is coming ahead. All we need to do is we need to find the right technology to go with that, and probably they need to start just looking into technologies to better to have the best out of this legislation that's all I have to say.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 34:50

Yeah, so it's about choosing the best thing, essentially. So, on that note, I wanted to finish off this episode with a quick fire round of questions. So the first answer that comes to your head abdul, are you ready? No, okay, we'll get through it anyway. Which is more important, transparency or traceability?

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 35:10

I think they're the same. You can't have transparency without disability that is very true.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 35:16

So maybe traceability needs to come first before transparency can happen. One word to describe the state of fashion production Carbon intensity. Hardest thing about being an entrepreneur Changing the market. Biggest tip factories looking to integrate data analytics to their factory floors. Real-time data analytics One advice for anyone looking to get into fashion supply chain.

Abdul Moiz Sajjad: 35:40

Hmm, I think I would say try to understand the market, try to understand where it's heading and then create a positive change for that, because people, the end consumers are looking for one.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 35:54

Thank you so much for your time for today's conversation. Thank you, it was lovely talking to you.